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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1930
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Posted - 2016.02.16 19:20:08 -
[1] - Quote
Grauth Thorner wrote:Big Lynx wrote:
Just a question and nothing personal falcon but who brainwashed you? Your collegues of controlling or marketing?
Funny how a lot (I'm not saying it was you) of players used to say 'nah, you don't need skills to PvP, you need experience!' to new pilots before CCP introduced the skill injectors.  Yet even more would swarm in trying to debunk that idea. So if the people you're talking about are right that's all the more reason to implement this, but if the people disputing them are right a system with no actual harm but limited benefit was introduced. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1936
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Posted - 2016.02.20 01:10:10 -
[2] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Skillpoints dont only allow ship piloting. theyre a huge buff to your character. In EvE we dont have buffs like mana regeneraters, HP boosts, etc etc we have skills which do the exact same thing. Buying skillpoints means you have a permanent fully buffed character 24/7 - DT. thats not pat to win I dont know what is That's inherent to the skill system itself, not skill trading specifically. If the advantages gained by SP are too big a buff to be allowed that means the skill system itself is flawed. That doesn't need an all max character to manifest either. Simply maxing a single ship fit achieves the same effective advantage situationally.
So why are these abilities only now winning?
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1936
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Posted - 2016.02.20 02:06:19 -
[3] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration. Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?
And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?
And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1939
|
Posted - 2016.02.20 04:14:49 -
[4] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Wait, the advantage is better because of a time gate? So for doing nothing but paying a sub for a while, and possibly quite a long while, you're suddenly more deserving of these advantages?
And if success is somehow skewed by RL funds how is it that the first max character didn't use any? And how did all the trained SP granting these advantages to other players over the years suddenly stop counting?
And no, player skill becomes more relevant because SP gaps can be closed if we're using the reasoning that SP is such a significant advantage.
Your arguments dont make sense. You postulate that timesinks are irrelevant so doing away with them through paying is not pay to win. If they were irrelevant prople would not being paying to bypass them. You make a strawman argument stating the first player to max didnt pay for isk without evidence of that and further ignore the fact that the average player doesnt have access to trillions of isk without paying for it with cash. You make another strawman argument by suggesting that players such as myself, with 13 years in game, are going to have their SP made redundant when its the average player with 1 day to 2 years who are nowhere near maxed skilled are the ones destined to lose most to the SP purchasers. And finally if, like myself, you had vast experience of engaging players with less SP you would realise that having core skills filled is a massive buff. You've missed the core argument, which is that skills clearly have to grant acceptable advantages or unacceptable advantages. Time gating them obviously doesn't change the advantages themselves, so clearly a time gate can't make it ok. So yes, a timesink is clearly irrelevant regarding whether skills are "winning" or not.
And no, the fact that the first player to reach the absolute peak did not use cash isn't a strawman in the face of the claim "All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds." The maximum possible grantable benefits of the system have first been conferred to a player who did not use those means. That you or anyone else can't simply means that you lacked the skill to do so. And like everything else in game, should you not be able to manipulate the game to get the isk for it you simply cannot have it. That doesn't make it unfair. That's the entire point of having ingame currency.
The next strawman argument you're trying to point to is something you have somehow imagined into existence because it's not based on anything I presented. SP cannot be made redundant because it only exists and confers unique benefits to single characters.
You're also apparently trying to paint a picture of average which would mean the game effectively churns it's entire active player base every 2 days to 4 years. Further that has nothing to do with the fact that those advantages are already conferred to players well beyond this "average." This does nothing to create a new advantage against them as that already existed.
Yet somehow you still argue the advantages of SP are too strong to trade, but fair enough have on top of insinuating the means of gaining them is real money, which it actually isn't. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1941
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 05:28:47 -
[5] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:sero Hita wrote:Infinity Ziona wrote:
Because like most games it was restricted. In WoW by time to level but more so the abilty to loot items. In EvE by time. Now its only limited by RL funds. All success in EvE is now skewed in favour of RL funds. While you can spend a few months to a few years to get the sane benefit you can also take out the CC and do it in minutes. Since player skill is available to all over time it becones an irrelevant consideration.
Ill give an example so we dont go back and forth arguing about inconsistencies - Joe and Jeff are average players. theyre in a system in null fighting. they engage and after an average fight using average skills Joe beats Jeff by a few HP. Jeff docks injects 10,000,000 SP he bought maxing cap, HP, and other core skills. He undocks and even though an identical fight takes place he has more HP cap etc and wins. Jeff won because he paid to win. simple
I don't think succes is skewed towards RL funds tbh. SPs matters little in exploration, mining and trading, it is more location location location. It matters more in production, but there you often also need a bigger setup, to make it profittable. So only buying SP will not do too much. In combat it also matters little. Sure one can put up an example like yours, designed to only lead to your conclusion, but that leaves a lot of complexity you would encounter in New Eden. You leave out all the game mechanics one can use to counter this. There is no difference for a new player to encounter a 13 year old veteran with good playerskills or another player who bought the SP (unless the person who SP has less player skill). If we could kill the occational veteran when i started two years ago, I hypothesize that a new player today can also kill the occational vet or SP infused player, if using the right tools. - group up and bait - fly hard counters ( a crappy rock, will often beat a good scissor) -be creative (I once killed a much beter pilot, flying a blingy confessor in a crappy fit belicose with three neuts, cap booster and drones. took me some time due to the crappy drone DPS, but he was not going anywere). With all the modules available one can make some interesting counters if one is creative. TLDR: I think you are overestimating the effect of SP, as it is how you use them that counts. EVE is a big game, and not every player is a game god able to utilize this. Will there be some who can? yes, there will. Will they affect me more than the 13 year old veterans do now? no. Will everyone do an Ironbank? ofc not, most people lack the means. Besides having all the skills on one char does nothing, as you cannot do hauling, mining, ganking, exploring, fleeting, doing incursions and wormhole stuff all at once. And if you have to be honest, outside of the forum crying, have you felt any effect of this Sp trading? I have not. And I am still training normally on my three 30 mill chars. I am not earning less, or dying more than usuall SP matters little in exploration minng and trading? I once took on a Proteus in an arranged duel with an armor tanked Raven fitted with heavy nuets n heavy missiles as that was all that was available in station. I would have eventually killed him had he not logged in an alt in a mega to save himself. I went to war with an entire alliance in their home system in null in a solo ASB Proteus and slaughtered them. That does not mean that armor fitted HM Ravens or ASB Prots are ships that the average person should fly. Such situations are incapable of providing a meaningful comparison. They are unusual and sometimes the unusual works but on the average it does not. When making a comparison the established method is to equalize both sides of the equation as in my example of Jeff and Joe. The only reliable to find out if Joe or Jeff can pay to win is to make Joe and Jeff average, with average skills and SP. When comparing that in same ships then adding SP to the equation we find it has a dramatic effect on the result proving you can pay to win. While you are right that EvE PvP involves very skewed an unequal forces where one person in a group injecting wont change the outcome much (except perhaps when utilising ECM in small group play) its not a correct comparison so it should not be made. The more relevant comparison to make is the one more likely to occur in the space being evaluated rather than the one which is engineered to best demonstrate your point.
And of course considering that there is no driving force in game to encourage equal match ups, nor is there a good measure of an equal match up by raw SP alone, the average "Joe" and "Jeff" make for terrible discussion points. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1941
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 08:40:51 -
[6] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:The more relevant comparison to make is the one more likely to occur in the space being evaluated rather than the one which is engineered to best demonstrate your point.
And of course considering that there is no driving force in game to encourage equal match ups, nor is there a good measure of an equal match up by raw SP alone, the average "Joe" and "Jeff" make for terrible discussion points. They make for the only discussion point. this thread is about The Individual Player buying skillpoints and whether that equats to pay to win. Deal with that. If you were to say something like "I dont think its PTW because most PvP is group based and the affect of one person buying skillpoints would be offset by the arbitrary nature of PvP, skillpoint totals and player skill of the disparate groups" you might be getting somewhere reasonable but of course the nature of EvE is min maxing so that wont hold true for long. And again a group that has several perfect skilled PTW ECM boat pilots will school the group who hs a couple of naturally skilled ECM pilots still training up. So basically you want to ignore relevant comparisons about how it affects the game, and instead concentrate on your perfect scenario to create the negative impact you're so keen on insisting has been introduced? And further you're calling that the only discussion point?
If that's the only discussion point then this discussion isn't relevant to Eve. Maybe in some game with arranged closed battles between players in the same age bracket, but here it's meaningless and contrived.
As you yourself just pointed out battles will occur between differing levels of skill, ships, modules, numbers, SP and mechanics involved with or without skill trading. That's why this creates no change. That's the actual reality of the game rather than the perfect fantasy you're creating to prove a false point.
And the irony is that you seem to think the differing of SP invested into tools used is only now going to start creating rifts. It's been doing that for years. If you haven't been complaining of the disparity prior, why is it an issue now?
Further why don't those natural pilots have the option to earn isk and use injectors if their so often matched up against perfect pilots and giving themselves the same edge without paying a cent? Or is that possibility ignored because it doesn't fit your narrative? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 10:59:01 -
[7] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Dear CCP Falcon, the defence of cash for skills seems to be predicated on the assumption that the buyer of skills will be a 'noob' and therefore hopeless at pvp. Seems pretty dishonest to say "the" defense predicates on anything as first, there are several and second I know I've both made a read defenses predicated on opposing observations. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1942
|
Posted - 2016.02.21 11:36:23 -
[8] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Im making the comparison based on CCPs statement of the average age of an EvE player. Google if you like. So not a logical fallacy. The logical fallacy has nothing to do with the details of the average character.
The fallacy in part originates from the fact that the "average character" is the result of a function aggregating all characters rather than a statement of where each individual character is.
The second fallacy is isolating 2 character data points specifically chosen to prove a point when there isn't a greater chance of those data points encountering each other more than any of the other points of data which will diverge wildly from that same average.
Third because your comparison fails to account for the non-linearity of skill training and the decisions that create differences in effectiveness with various tools based purely on choice even in a time only training system.
Basically it's a fallacy because for the point of this conversation average is a useless metric since it doesn't accurately identify the way the game plays.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1942
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Posted - 2016.02.22 07:06:57 -
[9] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Since the buying of skillpoints is an individual issue its dishonest to attempt to compare it in a general manner by using examples where multiple pilots are involved. To compare you must compare the way I am comparing - small scale using averages and minimal variables. If on an individual level it equates as pay to win, which it does then given a small gang, medium gang, large gang and fleet are all composed of infividual pilots then it must also equat to pay to win in those situations.
Buying skillpoints is paying to win. End of story. No, it's dishonest not to compare in a general manner because that's the manner that matters. A character having more SP than another character can be no more "winning" by the rules of the game than any other player with the same SP advantage regardless of the reason.
The small scale not only doesn't matter, it doesn't exist because there are no limit to scale or the players you can encounter at any scale. Further the fact is that characters that deviate from the average are now P2W characters regardless of how they got their SP if we accept average as something of a standard measure.
You genuinely can't even compare individual pilots according to averages due to divergent ages and training decisions. The equality you're trying to create and argue from is a blatant lie.
Quote:Pro Tip for vets who dont understand skillpoints - download EFT and check how skillpoints affect EHP, cap usage, cap totals, range tracking speed damage output, damage mitigation................ lots of dots because the list is huge, this apart from the ability to pilot a ship and fit mods :) Pro tip for those caught up in this line of poor logic:
The issue isn't not understanding SP, it's understanding that SP trading isn't the source of SP imbalance and further that those advantages are literally designed to be sought after and used. Maybe you should do that exercise you just suggested yourself, but this time keep in mind that those ranges of performance already existed prior to skill trading. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1944
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Posted - 2016.02.23 22:47:24 -
[10] - Quote
Ellen Sukarla wrote:This has prbably been brought up in this threadnaught but I watch character bazaar a lot and it is very disturbing seeing all these characters stripped down to 5.5m sp. I love CCP but even as a die hard fan this skill injector thing is killing the game for me, its just so against the game. Anyway I just posted this so hopefully someone at CCP looks at character bazaar and sees just how many characters are stripped. Are you a character seller or buyer?
I ask because I don't know of anyone not heavily invested in that area who would consider the game killed because of characters there being stripped of SP.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1951
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Posted - 2016.02.28 07:52:14 -
[11] - Quote
koenkoard wrote:1. Skill injectors
2. No drones on carriers
Just 2 examples (among a lot) of the 2 main policies that CCP has/will always follow. ItGÇÖs their trademark so to speak:
1. To plain and simple strip money out of players (300mil extractors lol) This actually has more to do with relative PLEX pricing, which is entirely driven by the PLEX market. If the price of injectors is at a certain level it'e because PLEX prices are holding it there
2. To systematically make it harder and harder for players to make Isk on their own in a half decent way (so they can enforce #1 easier) The fun thing there is that if those pilots are actually a significant part of the isk earning and PLEX using community, nerfing them actually would help lower those extractor prices you're complaining about.
So in short: ripGÇÖem off and cripple them so they canGÇÖt earn. CCPGÇÖs signature modus operandi.
Say what you want but we all know itGÇÖs true. Some point about the accusation above edited in. It's also worth noting that nerfing player's capacity to buy injectors and PLEX with in game means devalues them both from the standpoint of those spending real money and I'm willing to bet CCP already figured that out. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1951
|
Posted - 2016.02.28 18:06:35 -
[12] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:The problem woth this thinking is that some one who buys sp some how doest have the skill to use it.out becomes pay to when when is two equally skilled pilots one who can afford to get max SP and one who can not. This disparity is probably biggest during the first two years of a character. What happened when 2 players of differing ages but the same skill encountered each other prior, or the same age and skill but one purchased a character? Unless one goes with the assumption that SP and skill were linked before skill trading, which is anything but true, we already had the issue of similar player skill with dissimilar SP.
The dynamic may have been altered a bit but the result is the same.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1953
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Posted - 2016.03.09 02:19:28 -
[13] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Remmeber the character bazaar? Character history Kill board history Both of these will tend to be rendered irrelevant at best and entirely misleading at worst when a character changes hands. No one benefits from these being maintained.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:A lot less than is sunk into alts that are under used or train past being perfect in their purpose.
This has now changed, they are now used as an extra source of ISK to skim off the extra SP they gain. First numbers stated something by the way of 20% loss of SP. If we suppose the alt accounts in question stopped training prior we're seeing likely a gain around 70% - 80% their training capacity of useful SP.
That said given CCPs latest attempts at quantifying who had how many accounts there are per player that isn't too much. Either way that number should be going up rather than down, which really sounds like a good thing rather than flushing a useful part of the sub down the drain. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1962
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Posted - 2016.03.15 04:20:39 -
[14] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:... keep it's member base after forcing it to burn ISK or $$$ on injectors, ... Being in a top down ISK alliance, I think you should understand that this won't be necessary. "We need you to have XYZ skills to fly these doctrine ships. I am going to trade you a skill injector at a time and make sure via API that you inject them correctly." Still not seeing the actual issue here. Are you trying to paint a mutually beneficial exchange of SP as a bad thing? I'd assume line members of an alliance would gladly except free SP for the fleets they'd already be flying anyways while still having their normal training to take in other directions as they saw fit. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1962
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Posted - 2016.03.15 04:35:13 -
[15] - Quote
W33b3l wrote:You know we pay a 15 dollar a month subscription fee right?
Also a company has to produce a product worth buying at a fair price. And? That only entitles you to as much as CCP should decide. If you find that undesirable it's certainly your decision to make, but there isn't a universal consensus of fair obviously since there are plenty of extractors at the current price point.
On a related note to your prior post: AUR/PLEX have player driven isk prices and as such while the price for extractors may be effectively fixed to that price relative to their AUR cost, the in game cost is still player driven as a consequence.
W33b3l wrote:So let's say they came out with a specific class of ship that only can be bought with a real world money transaction in EVE. Would that cross the line for you? At what point is "give us extra money and we give you this" in a subscription based mmo too much for you? Yes, provided it was actually useful in some respect (they've already gone the "hangar trinket for PLEX route" several times so it's a bit late to be outraged about that), but that's not even remotely what's happening here so you're slippery sloping a bit. Thing is, and it's worth repeating, CCP isn't selling SP in any new way since MCTCs. Other players are selling their SP and their deciding it's worthwhile at the price point presented.
W33b3l wrote:You know who does this? Warcraft. You want to play space Warcraft? I can live with injectors existing but if they keep adding stuff in game like this I'll be done. Since EVE is my favorite game of all time and ive been playing it forever with several accounts. That says something. All it says is that you have an opinion and the capacity to leave the game. Same as everyone else. That doesn't elevate you to being an arbiter of what's ultimately good or bad here.
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